Christian Communion is it flesh & blood (2 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/20/2001 9:17 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 10)  
 
  73.1  
 
Communion
Koinonikos (2842) communicative, willing to communicate, liberally; sharing, fellowship, things in common
Verses - Matt 26:26-30 Mark 14:22-26 Luke 22:14-23 John 13:2-4 1Cor 10:16 2Cor 16:14 
First Use: Genesis 18:33 And the LORD went His way, as soon as He had left communing with Abraham: And Abraham returned unto his place.
1Cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

Communion is sharing whether it is sharing, food, friendship, shelter, thoughts, conversation, or a host of desirable things. Communion is common access to desirable content with a desirable outcome. If someone shares something negative it would be considered sabotage rather than communion. The ultimate communion is to share in the life of Jesus. This is just what Jesus is offering us, His life and that abundantly.

The communion with the bread and the wine is a representation that we are sharing in the body and blood (life) of Jesus. Our own mortal bodies are growing old and perishing, there can be no arguing the need for body and blood that are not tainted with sin. Jesus offers us His Body and His life abounding blood. When we take communion and eat the bread and the wine, we are participating in an illustration. While Jesus was teaching on earth, Jesus explained that if man desired to live, man would need to exchange the perishable body that man has and receive the same type of sinless body that Jesus has. John 6:51-56 I (Jesus) am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove (argued) among themselves, saying How can this man give us His flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily (truth), verily (truth), I say unto you, Except ye eat of the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth My flesh and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in Me, and I in him.

John 6:60-63 Many therefore of His disciples, when they heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples murmured at it, He said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man, ascend up where He was before? It is the Spirit that quickeneth (gives life); the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life.

John 6:66 From that time many of His disciples went back, and walked no more with Him.

This can be a difficult subject. Jesus explained that we need to have His body and His blood inside of us if we are to live in the resurrection. But then Jesus explained to the disciples that His body and blood are Spiritual the flesh profiteth nothing. Many of the disciples were saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat. These disciples were seeing Jesus as just that a man. Eating the flesh of a man will not profit, however by eating (internalizing) the words of God we will profit.

Lets look at another reason why the bread and the wine that we as Christians eat is an illustration and not the physical body and blood of Jesus. One of the most illegal things that a person can do in the Bible is to drink blood or to eat the flesh of another person. Leviticus 7:26,27 Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings. Whatsoever soul it be that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

Leviticus 17:10,11 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I (God) will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood:

The law was strictly written to instruct and to inform us. The law informs us that it is unacceptable to drink blood and that it is a curse to eat human flesh. The law describes to us Jesus; therefore Jesus is not going to do anything that is against the law.

Had Jesus wanted us to eat His physical flesh, and drink His physical blood then Jesus would have had to remove some of His flesh for the disciples to eat and He would have to injured Himself causing bleeding then offered it to the disciples to eat and drink. All of which would have been unlawful and the actions would actually cause separation from God and not reconciliation. Jesus did not offer His physical blood nor did He offer His physical flesh. Jesus offered the Spirit and His words are Spirit and life.

The bread and wine communion is symbolic. Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and He said, Take eat; this is My body. The bread is symbolic of the body of Jesus. The body that Jesus gave, allowing His body to be broken to pay for our sins. Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. The wine is symbolic of the blood that Jesus would shed. The shed blood and physical death of Jesus would activate the New Covenant (Will). The Covenant that through the death of Jesus we can now live a new life through the resurrection of Jesus. When we eat the bread and consider the death of Jesus our first natural reaction is to thirst, thirst for life. Our desire after eating the bread is to drink, and that is just what we do, we drink from the cup of Jesus indestructible life. Matthew 26:27 And He (Jesus) took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink all of it;

Excerpt from the book
Basic Christian: Theology
By David A. Brown






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Corkybob   6/20/2001 11:06 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (2 of 10)  
 
  73.2 in reply to 73.1  
 
Dear David, 
The bread and wine is more than communion in the sense of sharing. Paul says in 
1 Cor 10:16-17," 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body of Christ." 

Context in 
1 Cor 11:17-34. An unrulely crowd busted in to a service eating the bread and getting drunk on the wine. Paul says in 

1 Cor 11:17-22 that he is upset with the Church in Corinth. He says that there are divisions and he is not surprised for when you go to recieve the Lords supper it is not to eat. If you want to eat and drink you have houses for this, and this is the reason why. 

1 Cor 11:23-26 are lines that Catholics/Orthodox and Protestants have problems with. He says to do this in rememberance of me. The greek word could mean as a menorium, but it can also mean to remember someone that is present. 

So what does Paul mean? 
1 Cor 11:27-32. in 27 he says you must recieve the bread and wine worthily. He says in 28 that if you have serious sin on your soul, you shouldn't recieve it? You are to examine yourself for sin. Why? Because you are recieving the Lord in a physical way. If you are to have the Lord our God, creator of all, you must be without serious sin. In 29 he says one must decern the Lord before recieving, thus we have gotten to the crux of the matter. Those Corintihians were worried about their bellies. They did not fell that they were recieving Christ, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. This is why Paul says in 30 that this is the reason why you are many are sick and many are dying, because in 29 Paul says you are eating and drinking damnation on yourself (eats and drinks judgement on himself. 

1 Cor 11:33-34 he incourages the COrinthians that if they must get drunk, or eat, to do it in their houses. 

As for me, it sounds like it is more than just a symbol. 
Pax 
John
 
  
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  From:  wknight001   6/20/2001 6:39 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (3 of 10)  
 
  73.3 in reply to 73.1  
 
Dear David, 
"My flesh is true food.. my blood is true drink." I don't believe you can get much clearer than John 6. 

The early Christians believed in the real presence. Since nowhere does Jesus say it is symbolic, we must take Him at His Word. And why should he not remain with us till the end of the age? 

We must not be tempted to be spiritualists. Just as God became man, and not symbolically man, so God can give us his flesh under the appearance of bread and wine but in substance it is God. 

Sincerely, 

Jeffrey Thomas 
+AMDG 

 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/20/2001 8:45 pm  
To:  wknight001   (4 of 10)  
 
  73.4 in reply to 73.3  
 
Thank you both for responding to this post.
I hope to have a Long discussion on this topic.

We Agree in some-most areas; and disagree in a few areas. I think with a little discussion we can learn from each other, and Most of all Learn of Jesus who we truly Love.

Give me a day to respond on this topic, because I would like to make a thorough reply.

God Bless You,
David

PS in short my reply is going to be that Communion is Spiritual and it is A Blessing of Obedience.

Spiritual because in John 6:63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth (gives life); the flesh profiteth nothing: the words I (Jesus) speak unto you are Spirit, and they are Life.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  wknight001   6/21/2001 5:52 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (5 of 10)  
 
  73.5 in reply to 73.4  
 
Ah, but you see that passage is a different comparison. Jesus would not be calling his 'flesh' useless, he is making a comparison between the worldly understanding to the understanding of those who are moved by the Holy Spirit. 
Those who are moved by the Holy Spirit would understand what He is saying regarding the Eucharist. 

I eagerly await your response, but I urge you to open yourself prayerfully and consider the writings of the Early Church on this matter! 

Sincerely, 

Jeffrey Thomas 
+AMDG 

 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/21/2001 9:05 am  
To:  Corkybob   (6 of 10)  
 
  73.6 in reply to 73.2  
 
This is the reason why the Orthodox always go to confession before taking Communion. You're also supposed to pray for an hour before the actual service and fast at least 5 hours before recieving Communion (unless you need to take medication or need to eat for other health reasons, in which case the priest usually overlooks it). 
In the instance that you fail to do these things before taking Communion you end up having to confess it the following week... And believe me, the Catholics have it easy when it comes to confession.


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/22/2001 4:24 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (7 of 10)  
 
  73.7 in reply to 73.6  
 
Blood ..... ?

 
  
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  From:  racechaser69   6/24/2001 3:58 pm  
To:  wknight001   (8 of 10)  
 
  73.8 in reply to 73.3  
 
When Jesus changed the water to wine did it not turn into actual wine?It was the best wine of the feast we are told. Jesus did not tell the guests that "I have turned the water to wine but it will still taste like,and look like water.But trust me it is the finest wine you can have it just is under the appearance of loking and tasting like water." 
NO, I THINK NOT!!!THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN NO MIRACLE. And what Glory would have God received from that kind of pittiful presentation of an Almighty God? 
So I ask you about Transubstantiation,What Glory is God getting by a priest turning a cracker into Christ? Does anyone see it? God only performs miracles so that he can receive Glory for his Almighty work. 
A miracle that has no miraculous effect is no miracle in my opinion. 
Let's not forget it is a symbol and let's just be grateful for the redemptive power of the blood shed on the cross. 

Scott
 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/25/2001 1:14 am  
To:  racechaser69   (9 of 10)  
 
  73.9 in reply to 73.8  
 
so God showed his all omnipotence by doing something anyone who's had 4 years of chemistry can do ???? *clap, clap*

 
  
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   From:  wknight001   6/25/2001 5:48 am  
To:  racechaser69   (10 of 10)  
 
  73.10 in reply to 73.8  
 
Ahh. When God became Jesus did he not look like an ordinary man without any particular beauty! By your same logic He should've walked around glowing all the time and throwing thunderbolts! 
Besides it the flesh of God is not like any other flesh. Do you truly not understand that a miracle must contain such depth? Do not try to put God in a simple little rational box! 

However Jesus has confirmed His Eucharist with miracles just as you have described: 

This link has many miracles off of it. 

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/euch_fr.htm 

The faith of the early Christians has been the faith of the Eucharist! You will not find it denied by them. :) I trust those who knew the apostles better than some modern exegete trying to work in a vacuum, not knowing the culture, not knowing the people, not truly understanding that Jesus's truth must be unwaving and available to all, unchanging and rejected by the world but a beacon to those with the hearts and minds seeking and open and not trusting in themselves. 

St Ignatius (110 AD) "[heretics] abstain from Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess tha the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ. . ." Letter to the Smyrnaeans 

St. Justin Martyr (150 AD) "...not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but ...as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the Flesh and Blood of that incarnated Jesus." First Apology, 66,20 

God bless you in your search! The Eucharist is a sign of the Unity of the Church that Jesus prayed for. 

Sincerely, 

Jeffrey Thomas 
+AMDG 

 
  
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